Spatial Audio: Poetics and Workflows: An interview with composer, Pierre Alexandre Tremblay, February 2020 about his piece, Bucolic and Broken. Interview by Brona Martin
BM: Morning! I just wanted to say thanks for your piece, at the Convergence Conference at DMU, Leicester. I really enjoyed it.
PAT: Thanks again!
BM: The space, pace and the combination of soundscape and musical materials worked really well.
PAT: I worked really hard on this, to try to combine the various aesthetics and levels of metaphors / modes of listening of each component.
I had to write a report about it, and I wrote this:
The musical language, in material and in form, exemplifies aesthetic research in post-acousmatic compositional practice, where works acknowledge Schaefferian ascendance and influence in all its rich original experimental complexity, to propose an alternative take on its main Baylian descendance. Elements of the latter, and of the Montreal school, are still present, but there is an explicit desire to explore further lesser-developed branches left behind, through allusions to electronica, noise, instrumental, anecdotal and abstracted sources, all confounded in poetical polysemy and sonic fusion reminding of popular music use of studio. More importantly, a true hybridisation is aimed at, in a spirit of metamodern recombination and hopeful cross-current explorations, more than confrontational postmodern collage. For instance, modular synthesisers and anecdotal sound recordings in counterpoint, assembled as post-glitch digital sound world with a processed modal piano backdrop, bring together material and references from various eras and strands of studio music practices contributes to wider discussions on how concert fixed media music can unify its past towards a richer future. Formal concerns are also offering practice-based reflections on the idea of rondo, and clear leitmotivs, beyond the simple alternating and sectional collage so common in the genre.
I particularly like the polysemy of the corrupted anecdotal sounds, and how they bounce against the programme note: if you don’t have it, it is here: and the quote from Sarah Kane. If anything in here is not clear, feel free to ask more questions, or comment, that helps me clarify the thoughts.
BM: I like how you talk about hybridisation which is making me think about a piece I just finished this week for Live Nyckelharpa and Tape, composed for a project led Robert Bentall, Leeds College of Music. Because of what you have written above "For instance, modular synthesisers and anecdotal sound recordings in counterpoint, assembled as post-glitch digital sound world with a processed modal piano backdrop, bring together material and references from various eras" I am beginning to think about my own piece in different ways. The material is derived from recordings of the Nyckelharpa and also from the Buchla 200 synthesiser (EMS, Stockholm). The idea for the piece was based around the project them 'Reimagining the Nyckelharpa" and I was really focused on this idea. However, I neglected to think about the implications of bringing these sounds together (Nyckelharpa and Buchla), sounds from different eras and genres of music e.g. folk, electronic. Because of what you said I need to revisit the programme note because there are many different references to different types of music within the work.
PAT: The thing is, I really try to blend them, not to confront them, and when I manage it well, then juxtaposition takes another, deeper, more fruitful, multidimensional sense. Polysemic. I like that effect quite a lot, when sound [has] both reduced (formal) causal (anecdotes) and semantic ([both] at a primal level like the dogs barking, and also instrumental/musical). Good old Chion.
BM: I really like this quote by Sarah Kane. “Art is not about the shock of something new. It’s about arranging the old in such a way that you see it afresh.”
PAT: Me too! Have you read her work? Quite intensely violent yet beautiful and poetic. And this book I quote is a set of interviews she did with this guy, which shed an insight on how she saw the world.
BM: Did you work with ambisonics? How did you find moving between studios as you were composing? (“Bucolic & Broken was realized from October 2016 to April 2017 in the SPIRAL (Spatialisation and Interactive Research Lab) of the University of Huddersfield (UK) and in the hemisphere studio of Notam (Olso, Norway), with road tests and mixing in the spherical studio of the University of Hull (UK)”.) Quote taken from Programme note
PAT: On a different plane, at which technology and aesthetic inform each other, the piece offers a novel way to utilise three competing multi-channel paradigms (third-order ambisonics, cinema 7.1 and classic acousmatic loudspeaker orchestra), where the aesthetic and technical strengths of each implementation are exploited, in the context of allowing the portability of music written for large loudspeakers arrays. Since these are more frequently seen [these days], and that various cultures (cinema, videogame, etc) have started embracing high-count multichannel, this piece offers one proposed avenue to reinvigorate and critique traditional multichannel fixed media, both in the commercial world and in the experimental one. Extensive ear training on the intrinsic pros and cons of each multichannel paradigm was undertaken, and the required calibration procedure allowing their successful artistic and technical cohabitation was tested in 3 different multichannel studios (Hull, NOTAM and SPIRAL) and was afterwards validated in all concert presentations. Whereas the precision of point-sources of the classic cinema setup is used to allow full-range, articulated protagonists to dialogue, the more mobile and diffuse sound of the TOA is used to give breadth to these elements, as well as auditory context and fluidity. The use of a quadraphonic real distant loudspeakers, directly from the GRM tradition, allows to give further distance than the other two paradigm which are anchored on a hemisphere, to allow the composition of a depth of field difficultly affordable otherwise. The final work has therefore only 28 channels, and has been successfully decoded on systems varying in loudspeaker count, from 12 to more than 100. The calibration is straightforward, making sure that provided test signal are matched by ear in colour and amplitude post-decoding.
The rational was: 1) I’m a slow composer so I need the piece to be played more than once, 2) each panning technique has a sound. So I need to make a portable, optimal sounding setup. The solution was to do ear training, and testing in various places if that worked
BM: OK Wow some serious work there.
PAT: Indeed - this is why I’m in academia: to have the time to go deep in questions ;-) This is by opposition to my friends who are professional composers and have to churn out so much music that thinking time is a rare thing...
BM: I am interested in the work-flow and what happens when you move your work between multichannel studios and use different types of panning.
PAT: Fundamentally, 3rd order ambisonics is still imprecise, point-source cinema style is sharp but very much ‘in the speaker’ and real distants are opening up the ‘on the sphere’ sound of the previous 2. With this, I have movement (TOA) clear sources (cinema) and clear distance (distants) and I can compose using each for what they are good at. The session runs in 28 channels, to a decoder. I have done it in the box (at Jonty Harrison’s house) on a 8+4 home-dome, using phantom spacing for the cinema and reverb for the distant, and it still worked well. The sweet spot was narrow (because of TOA and phantom panning) but perfect for composition.
BM I have started working with ambisonics but I'm finding it difficult to get my head around
PAT: It is not simple, because there are many competing formats of channel order and normalisation and zero position and direction of angles...
BM: I’m hoping to keep working with it and eventually it will make sense. Your work was 16 channels? Does that mean it is 3rd order ambisonics or spatialised in 16 channel.
PAT: My work was decoded to 2 circles of 8. It is not optimal but does the job. The optimal setup is 5:2 point sources (cinema 7.1 surround) a 3rd order ambisonic decoder and a quad of real distant speakers in the corners of the room. These are on 28 channels total. There are pink noises for each format that one should adjust in loudness and colour, and then you are ready to rock!
BM: I have also been thinking about portability in multi-channel composition and carrying out some experiments. Last year I spatialised a piece using the L-ISA object based panning system for their soundart gallery. (Project details here). I didn't get much time with the system but it was interesting to work with object based panning and experiment with systems that are being used in commercial music. I am currently on a residency in France and I am working with Unity and Fmod, exploring spatialisation tools used in gaming and thinking about other portable platforms that can be used for the performance of electroacoustic music outside of the concert hall. Back to ambisonics! What ambisonic plugins did you use?
PAT: I used the free stuff, mostly Ambix and o3a.
BM: Any favourites? Also you thank Normadeau for Gris support in your programme note. I have used SpatGris for 2D spatialisation in 8-channel and I really like it.
PAT: I tried it, and it stayed there. [i.e. I did not find it as useful as the other 3 methods so I left it at testing stage] I used the reaper built-in amp-panner in the end for my 7.1 and quad stems.
BM: Did you use ServerGRIS for 3D spatialisation?
PAT: No, because I used my 3 coexistent settings (see below)
BM: So you are using three different types of spatialisation in the same project session?
PAT: Yes
BM: You have 3 sub-mixes in the project
PAT: 3 sub-masters, yes.
BM: You said above "the final work has therefore only 28 channels and has been successfully decoded on systems varying in loudspeaker count, from 12 to more than 100". So you decode the Master mix of all three setups?
PAT: Yes. The 16 TOA go to a TOA decoder, and if I have real 8 and real distant quad this goes directly to the speakers; if not [that many pointsources are available, like in the composition studio] the 8 go to an amp[litude] panner (in most studios) and the quad goes to a multichannel reverb to fake the distance and colour. Most importantly, the pink noise bursts are then calibrated in colour and loudness to match between each decoder. This is what I tested (as well as composer’s [questions]) in each of the studios and venues.
Also, I should say that the 7.1 (which I call the ‘cheats’) are in effect 7[5:2] + 1 bird speaker (which is above speaker 1. So the [channel] order is: 1738256
With #4 not being a sub but that bird speaker above 1 or 7
BM: (You are referring to the Convergence performance at DMU, September 2019). So you decoded the TOA part to 2 rings of 8 and then mapped the other channels (distant and 7.1) to the 2 circles of 8 loudspeakers?
PAT: Yes. Like I do in studios, using as I said above (reverb to fake distance on the quad and amplitude based to fake the ‘cheats’ positioning)
BM: Yes this is great and very interesting. Apologies if I am not getting the spatialisation workflow!
PAT: It is quite involved. I’m told other people have used similar options, but I have not heard (nor read about) them so I don’t know who that is! I can investigate a little.
BM: Thanks for your reply. It all now makes sense and thanks for taking the time to explain your setup and workflow. A lot of composers are using ambisonics and it is mentioned in their programme notes but after that I haven't read much about the composer's workflow, the whys and the hows. I would really like to start a conversation about this with other composers and have it available somewhere. e.g. discuss works that were composed using different systems e.g. the SPIRAL, the system at hull etc. and also discuss the plugins composers use. Let me know what you think of this since you have made many different experiments for this piece using different systems.
Last question: What is the title of the Sarah Kane book?
PAT: There are 2: all her oeuvre is in:
Sarah Kane Complete Plays
And the interviews and texts about her are in:
'Love Me or Kill Me': Sarah Kane and the Theatre of Extremes (Theatre: Theory - Practice - Performance)
And this one looks interesting but I have not read:
'About Kane' by Graham Saunders
PAT: Thanks again!
BM: The space, pace and the combination of soundscape and musical materials worked really well.
PAT: I worked really hard on this, to try to combine the various aesthetics and levels of metaphors / modes of listening of each component.
I had to write a report about it, and I wrote this:
The musical language, in material and in form, exemplifies aesthetic research in post-acousmatic compositional practice, where works acknowledge Schaefferian ascendance and influence in all its rich original experimental complexity, to propose an alternative take on its main Baylian descendance. Elements of the latter, and of the Montreal school, are still present, but there is an explicit desire to explore further lesser-developed branches left behind, through allusions to electronica, noise, instrumental, anecdotal and abstracted sources, all confounded in poetical polysemy and sonic fusion reminding of popular music use of studio. More importantly, a true hybridisation is aimed at, in a spirit of metamodern recombination and hopeful cross-current explorations, more than confrontational postmodern collage. For instance, modular synthesisers and anecdotal sound recordings in counterpoint, assembled as post-glitch digital sound world with a processed modal piano backdrop, bring together material and references from various eras and strands of studio music practices contributes to wider discussions on how concert fixed media music can unify its past towards a richer future. Formal concerns are also offering practice-based reflections on the idea of rondo, and clear leitmotivs, beyond the simple alternating and sectional collage so common in the genre.
I particularly like the polysemy of the corrupted anecdotal sounds, and how they bounce against the programme note: if you don’t have it, it is here: and the quote from Sarah Kane. If anything in here is not clear, feel free to ask more questions, or comment, that helps me clarify the thoughts.
BM: I like how you talk about hybridisation which is making me think about a piece I just finished this week for Live Nyckelharpa and Tape, composed for a project led Robert Bentall, Leeds College of Music. Because of what you have written above "For instance, modular synthesisers and anecdotal sound recordings in counterpoint, assembled as post-glitch digital sound world with a processed modal piano backdrop, bring together material and references from various eras" I am beginning to think about my own piece in different ways. The material is derived from recordings of the Nyckelharpa and also from the Buchla 200 synthesiser (EMS, Stockholm). The idea for the piece was based around the project them 'Reimagining the Nyckelharpa" and I was really focused on this idea. However, I neglected to think about the implications of bringing these sounds together (Nyckelharpa and Buchla), sounds from different eras and genres of music e.g. folk, electronic. Because of what you said I need to revisit the programme note because there are many different references to different types of music within the work.
PAT: The thing is, I really try to blend them, not to confront them, and when I manage it well, then juxtaposition takes another, deeper, more fruitful, multidimensional sense. Polysemic. I like that effect quite a lot, when sound [has] both reduced (formal) causal (anecdotes) and semantic ([both] at a primal level like the dogs barking, and also instrumental/musical). Good old Chion.
BM: I really like this quote by Sarah Kane. “Art is not about the shock of something new. It’s about arranging the old in such a way that you see it afresh.”
PAT: Me too! Have you read her work? Quite intensely violent yet beautiful and poetic. And this book I quote is a set of interviews she did with this guy, which shed an insight on how she saw the world.
BM: Did you work with ambisonics? How did you find moving between studios as you were composing? (“Bucolic & Broken was realized from October 2016 to April 2017 in the SPIRAL (Spatialisation and Interactive Research Lab) of the University of Huddersfield (UK) and in the hemisphere studio of Notam (Olso, Norway), with road tests and mixing in the spherical studio of the University of Hull (UK)”.) Quote taken from Programme note
PAT: On a different plane, at which technology and aesthetic inform each other, the piece offers a novel way to utilise three competing multi-channel paradigms (third-order ambisonics, cinema 7.1 and classic acousmatic loudspeaker orchestra), where the aesthetic and technical strengths of each implementation are exploited, in the context of allowing the portability of music written for large loudspeakers arrays. Since these are more frequently seen [these days], and that various cultures (cinema, videogame, etc) have started embracing high-count multichannel, this piece offers one proposed avenue to reinvigorate and critique traditional multichannel fixed media, both in the commercial world and in the experimental one. Extensive ear training on the intrinsic pros and cons of each multichannel paradigm was undertaken, and the required calibration procedure allowing their successful artistic and technical cohabitation was tested in 3 different multichannel studios (Hull, NOTAM and SPIRAL) and was afterwards validated in all concert presentations. Whereas the precision of point-sources of the classic cinema setup is used to allow full-range, articulated protagonists to dialogue, the more mobile and diffuse sound of the TOA is used to give breadth to these elements, as well as auditory context and fluidity. The use of a quadraphonic real distant loudspeakers, directly from the GRM tradition, allows to give further distance than the other two paradigm which are anchored on a hemisphere, to allow the composition of a depth of field difficultly affordable otherwise. The final work has therefore only 28 channels, and has been successfully decoded on systems varying in loudspeaker count, from 12 to more than 100. The calibration is straightforward, making sure that provided test signal are matched by ear in colour and amplitude post-decoding.
The rational was: 1) I’m a slow composer so I need the piece to be played more than once, 2) each panning technique has a sound. So I need to make a portable, optimal sounding setup. The solution was to do ear training, and testing in various places if that worked
BM: OK Wow some serious work there.
PAT: Indeed - this is why I’m in academia: to have the time to go deep in questions ;-) This is by opposition to my friends who are professional composers and have to churn out so much music that thinking time is a rare thing...
BM: I am interested in the work-flow and what happens when you move your work between multichannel studios and use different types of panning.
PAT: Fundamentally, 3rd order ambisonics is still imprecise, point-source cinema style is sharp but very much ‘in the speaker’ and real distants are opening up the ‘on the sphere’ sound of the previous 2. With this, I have movement (TOA) clear sources (cinema) and clear distance (distants) and I can compose using each for what they are good at. The session runs in 28 channels, to a decoder. I have done it in the box (at Jonty Harrison’s house) on a 8+4 home-dome, using phantom spacing for the cinema and reverb for the distant, and it still worked well. The sweet spot was narrow (because of TOA and phantom panning) but perfect for composition.
BM I have started working with ambisonics but I'm finding it difficult to get my head around
PAT: It is not simple, because there are many competing formats of channel order and normalisation and zero position and direction of angles...
BM: I’m hoping to keep working with it and eventually it will make sense. Your work was 16 channels? Does that mean it is 3rd order ambisonics or spatialised in 16 channel.
PAT: My work was decoded to 2 circles of 8. It is not optimal but does the job. The optimal setup is 5:2 point sources (cinema 7.1 surround) a 3rd order ambisonic decoder and a quad of real distant speakers in the corners of the room. These are on 28 channels total. There are pink noises for each format that one should adjust in loudness and colour, and then you are ready to rock!
BM: I have also been thinking about portability in multi-channel composition and carrying out some experiments. Last year I spatialised a piece using the L-ISA object based panning system for their soundart gallery. (Project details here). I didn't get much time with the system but it was interesting to work with object based panning and experiment with systems that are being used in commercial music. I am currently on a residency in France and I am working with Unity and Fmod, exploring spatialisation tools used in gaming and thinking about other portable platforms that can be used for the performance of electroacoustic music outside of the concert hall. Back to ambisonics! What ambisonic plugins did you use?
PAT: I used the free stuff, mostly Ambix and o3a.
BM: Any favourites? Also you thank Normadeau for Gris support in your programme note. I have used SpatGris for 2D spatialisation in 8-channel and I really like it.
PAT: I tried it, and it stayed there. [i.e. I did not find it as useful as the other 3 methods so I left it at testing stage] I used the reaper built-in amp-panner in the end for my 7.1 and quad stems.
BM: Did you use ServerGRIS for 3D spatialisation?
PAT: No, because I used my 3 coexistent settings (see below)
BM: So you are using three different types of spatialisation in the same project session?
PAT: Yes
BM: You have 3 sub-mixes in the project
PAT: 3 sub-masters, yes.
BM: You said above "the final work has therefore only 28 channels and has been successfully decoded on systems varying in loudspeaker count, from 12 to more than 100". So you decode the Master mix of all three setups?
PAT: Yes. The 16 TOA go to a TOA decoder, and if I have real 8 and real distant quad this goes directly to the speakers; if not [that many pointsources are available, like in the composition studio] the 8 go to an amp[litude] panner (in most studios) and the quad goes to a multichannel reverb to fake the distance and colour. Most importantly, the pink noise bursts are then calibrated in colour and loudness to match between each decoder. This is what I tested (as well as composer’s [questions]) in each of the studios and venues.
Also, I should say that the 7.1 (which I call the ‘cheats’) are in effect 7[5:2] + 1 bird speaker (which is above speaker 1. So the [channel] order is: 1738256
With #4 not being a sub but that bird speaker above 1 or 7
BM: (You are referring to the Convergence performance at DMU, September 2019). So you decoded the TOA part to 2 rings of 8 and then mapped the other channels (distant and 7.1) to the 2 circles of 8 loudspeakers?
PAT: Yes. Like I do in studios, using as I said above (reverb to fake distance on the quad and amplitude based to fake the ‘cheats’ positioning)
BM: Yes this is great and very interesting. Apologies if I am not getting the spatialisation workflow!
PAT: It is quite involved. I’m told other people have used similar options, but I have not heard (nor read about) them so I don’t know who that is! I can investigate a little.
BM: Thanks for your reply. It all now makes sense and thanks for taking the time to explain your setup and workflow. A lot of composers are using ambisonics and it is mentioned in their programme notes but after that I haven't read much about the composer's workflow, the whys and the hows. I would really like to start a conversation about this with other composers and have it available somewhere. e.g. discuss works that were composed using different systems e.g. the SPIRAL, the system at hull etc. and also discuss the plugins composers use. Let me know what you think of this since you have made many different experiments for this piece using different systems.
Last question: What is the title of the Sarah Kane book?
PAT: There are 2: all her oeuvre is in:
Sarah Kane Complete Plays
And the interviews and texts about her are in:
'Love Me or Kill Me': Sarah Kane and the Theatre of Extremes (Theatre: Theory - Practice - Performance)
And this one looks interesting but I have not read:
'About Kane' by Graham Saunders
